The type 31 FRIGATE programme is moving along, not as quicklyas we'd like but that seems to be the way in most countries these days. I reckon lack of a hangar and helo would be raised as this would be useful for drugs enforcement and humanitarian relief . NYPD vs Republican Guards or Revolutionary Guards? More Maps by builderel1. A fifth was built for the Royal Thai Navy. You might want to compare the ships for the roles it IS supposed to be designed for, not try to make them fight off the Red Menace by themselves solo. With limited usage. All those tasks you point out; Carrying containers, Launching patrol boats, Mine laying, UAV operations can all be done just as well from cheap non complex platforms. I thought it would be implicit in my discussion of the potentialities provided by its ability to embark containers. October 31, 2020 DP Staff Writer 0 Comments HMNB Portsmouth, HMS Spey (P234), Offshore Patrol Vessel (OPV), River-class OPV, Royal Navy, UK. The origin of the R2s is, as is well known, the BAE Systems 90 m OPVs that have been sold to Brazil (three, originally built for Trinidad and Tobago) and Thailand (one, with a second now on order and perhaps more to come). If they had the chance again would they have bought some? But, the River B1 or B2 cannot do this because of, say, -lack of helicopter, lack of firepower (even a 3 in gun is a threat), and (maybe) lack of range and endurance. That’s why the USCG has cutters who are armed with at mim a 57 mm Bofors to a 76 mm Main deck gun. 1; Feature on profile; Embed; Report; PMCBBCode. For me, the lessons identified from all of the above is the need for a larger hull, which provides endurance, capacity and flexibility, rather than a number of smaller hulls with individual complementary capabilities but fundamentally reduced range. Among them, APT-N “want’s” helicopter hangar. Additionally, the low weight and footprint of the VDS allows it to be fitted to vessels not specifically designed for ASW operations. Xavier Vavasseur 03 Aug 2020 . Police vessel, like the big words “POLICE” on the side isn’t a big giveaway. @peter elliott -The Falklands. The River Class is a class of offshore patrol vessels. You might want to look for a destroyer or a frigate for that job. I have told you why something like C Sword 90 does not work for us, so has TAS. If you want to send R2/3s to Mali, Siera Leone, or like, Wildcat hanger will be needed, but up-armor will not be so critical. This becomes more obvious when you understand that anti smuggling and fish, anti piracy etc are Intel driven and geographically focused. 65 crew, 20 additional berths, 95m long, 2x 11m RHIBs, 76 or 57 main gun, 2x 20 or 30mm secondary. Assumed Command of HMS Spey in March 2020, the last of five brand new Batch 2 River Class Offshore Patrol Vessels. Who knows? :) ). TenCate Advanced Armor recently completed the installation of a protective armour solution developed for BAE Systems for the River Class Batch 2 Offshore Patrol Vessels (OPVs), demonstrating TenCate Advanced Armor’s capability to integrate, manufacture, and install the … Speed: 18 knots (33 km/h; 21 mph) Even a 5in gun is surplus in some cases. Not gapping Crowsnest Good. Wacking Russians is a hobby. Or, in other words, they are real, if lightly armed, warships. That is why they are there and why nobody at 5th Fleet would dream of swapping 2 of them for another 2 Patrol Boats. As an aside, I notice the various russian fleets have smaller warships, corvettes etc as part of the fleet. Used to have 6 torpedoes but they took it out for a Scaneagle. So take home message, if you want to work with classified material in the UK, send in the application early. This is similar to what is happening between your Type- series and the Rivers series, one is a patrol ship, the other is a ship designed for high intensity situations. A flight deck also increases SAR capability (It isn’t all about killing stuff!) And not OPVs? I would have built this big OPV with all the same warshipy upgrades, but with a hull full of ballast and the same small crew operating a similar weapons, sensor and equipment fit… with the notable addition of a hangar plus plenty of ISO container space. C Sword 90 does not have anything it is power point. In-box reviews. The first two Batch 2 River Class, HMS Forth and Medway are deployed to the South and North Atlantic respectively. As TAS pointed out even a T23 is totally overflowing with the extra kit and personnel required for a 6 or now 9 month operational deployment. Would be virtually impossible at state 1 and totally impossible to maintain 24/7. Or the FBI. That, too, would involve redesign. 3 diamonds; 518 views, 2 today; 0 comments; 1 favorites; 3. IM weapons are coming into service but the legacy munitions in use have a number of serious problems if damaged by shrapnel, bullet penetration or just being in a good old blazing inferno. Then you have a counter terrorism check cleRance level. But why these changes? What really needs correcting are the numbers of capable escorts – frigates and destroyers. If we were building 16 T26 now, we would have saved money (& not had this “Hitler rants” thread) on the batch 2 River class. That’s what could easily happen with the surface fleet. Literally the burnt hand (boat) teaches best. Yet somehow people keep thinking slapping missiles on board a ship is a good idea regardless of tasking. They are naval vessels, but definitely not warships. The vessels were built under a contract with BAE Systems and are worth a combined £635m. Magazine protection (if my memory serves me correctly, this involves the fitting of Kevlar armour), Change lighting and domestic power voltage from 115 v to 230 v, Replace navigation radars (fit the Kelvin Hughes Sharpeye), Provide emergency communication equipment. JH, the OPVs are busy doing fisheries patrol since there are only 3 of them. That is a Frigate in most navies. The three ships of the Amazonas-class corvette in service with the Brazilian Navy were developed from the Batch 1 River-class design, and the Royal Navy’s Batch 2 ships were in turn based upon the Amazonas design. It has a rate of fire 100/200 rounds per minute and uses armour-piercing incendiary (API) and high explosive incendiary (HEI) ammunition. A 76 mm gun system with an unprotected magazine could turn an OPV into a death trap if it got caught up in a real shoot out, even if the opponent had lighter calibre weapons. 21st February 2017 - 12:30 GMT | by The Shephard News Team. And a First World War Flower sloop would have been blown out of the water by a hit from a German torpedo (no doubt some were: I have no information on losses). APT-S and FIGS? At least with HTMS Krabi, you have a well armed OPV for EEZ patrol and for Missions such as SAR, Martitime security, Maritime patrol, Alien interdiction mission, Anti Piracy and counter drug operations The R2 River class OPV fit the Similar mission profile of the US Coast Guard’s 270 Medium Endurance class cutters such as National Defense, search and rescue, alien migrant interdiction operations, counter-drug patrols, fisheries enforcement, and international engagement. So in that respect the extra speed will help. The least BAES could do was build these overpriced vessels to Gucci OPV standards. Committee writes to Secretary of State on Type 26 Global Combat ship, Defence Implications of Brexit - Further Thoughts, New Long Read – Folding Boat Equipment (FBE), Updated Long Read – The Atlantic Conveyor,,,,,,,,,,,,, Easibridge – Lightweight Tactical Bridging Innovation, The British Army – Transformation in an Age of Complexity, Military Humanitarian Assistance Disaster Response (HADR) – Haiti 2010, Air Operations and the Toussaint L’Ouverture International Airport, Winston and Nellie (the Trenching Machine), Towards #SDSR18 – Breaking the Cycle of Perpetual Crisis, Thoughts on the British Army Strike Concept, Looking Ahead – Part 2 (Meeting the Challenges), An Essay from a Former British Army Officer, Anglo Engineering Concepts – Back to Systems Thinking, Change Comes to the US and UK Land Forces, Appendix B – 40mm Cased Telescoped Weapon System (CTWS), Appendix C – Generic Vehicle Architecture, From Umm Qasr to Unmanned Warrior – Royal Navy Mine Countermeasures, Joint Port Opening Capability – A Proposal, The Changing Coastline and Port Environment, Requirement 1 – Design, Contract Management and Rapid Response Survey, Requirement 2 – Port Opening and Augmentation, Requirement 3 – Enhanced Coastline Access, Meeting Requirement 1 – Port Survey and Design, UK Amphibious Capabilities – Today and Tomorrow, Al Faw and the Operation to Open the Iraqi Port of Umm Qasr, Over the Shore Logistics of D Day and Beyond, Designing and Building the Mulberry Harbour, The Boxer Armoured Vehicle and the British Army, Boxer Armoured Vehicle Details and Variants, Ascension Island and the 1982 Falklands Conflict, Over the Shore Logistics – San Carlos and Beyond, Operation Black Buck – Claims and Counterclaims, Type 26 Global Combat Ship (GCS) – Capabilities, Supacat All Terrain Mobility Platform (ATMP) and Springer, Watchkeeper Tactical Unmanned Aerial System (TUAS). Now, the first key point to note is that both the Ministry of Defence (MoD) and BAES have stated that the design of the R2s is “based on” that of the 90 m OPV. Thank the public who made a fuss, not Blair/Brown. Barely better than OPVs on steriods, themselves. BAE Systems Begins Construction on Second River Class Batch 2 Offshore Patrol Vessel The UK Secretary of State formally started construction of HMS MEDWAY, the second of three River Class Batch 2 vessels, by operating the plasma steel-cutting machine at an event attended by representatives from the Royal Navy, the local community and BAE Systems employees. @Sparky42 If we want boats to be flexible and patrol, the same effect can be achieved much more efficiently using a simple commercial hull. If escort number is in good shape, little need for “Patrol Frigate”, I agree. They also have built in room for extra growth and the ability to be upgunned to a ASUW frigate. Further more one the flight deck is filled with a proper radar and Sea Ceptor silos there is no room left for anything else. Hopefully we will move towards a strategy that focusses on a drumbeat of DD/FF and SSNs without significant gaps that require make work to avoid skills losses, “As for the UK’s design teams, in these days of multinational companies and freedom of movement, are the UK’s ship design teams genuinely any more British than Arsenal’s first team? @Observer @Observer These two facts, however, will probably push the RN towards a well known and often discussed alternative to their current operating doctrine – that of the Marine Nationale. And as part of a coalition task force much less? They do MCMV work and conduct general maritime security and engagement work in the Gulf area. A modern ship can’t fight with its power offline. The rivers B1 have always been primarily fisheries protection vessels, it’s what they are funded for and meant to do (the B2s are not fundamental different) and they do it very well. Militarily peoples performance is significantly degraded by seasickness. Another example is provided by HMS Fearless, which, during the Falklands War in 1982 embarked and operated three Sea King assault and three Scout helicopters despite having no hangar. Again its not something you will see much of in the catalogues. They may look the same externally, but internally they are going to be different. She was launched on 14 June 2006 in Portsmouth Naval Base by VT Group shipbuilders in Portsmouth, England, and is the fourth vessel of the River class, with a displacement of 2,000 tonnes and a 30 mm Oerlikon KCB gun in place of the 20 mm gun fitted to Tyne River … HMS Forth, River Class, Batch 2 HMS FORTH Royal Navy River Class Batch 2 OPV Navigation and Communications outfit. JH, there was a documentary once which showed the life on board one of those patrol corvettes in our navy. OK, perhaps not nowhere, as all around the World, there are disputes. They will be replaced by five new River Class ‘Batch 2’ boats. The larger Castle-class could reach 19.5 kts. “Let’s nuke that speedboat”, Level 3 – super flighty They are too slow, with a too small sphere of influence to have the coverage or response times necessary to counter general maritime security threats like piracy or smuggling. Here she sits at Scotstoun on the River Clyde. She was launched in June 2019 2018. For this purpose, a 25 tonne capacity crane is fitted. So how is there a “shortage” of ships going to the Middle East when there is already a station (2 in fact, CTF-150 and -151?) Todays PM would have just stared blankly at it. There are many who won’t be upset by such a change. JH, wars may come out of nowhere but equipment doesn’t. Before going further, this list bears examining in terms of what it tells us about the BAES OPV design, or more precisely, their reduced operational capabilities. I thought we very recently sent hms enterprise to Libya for survelliance and rescue missions. I hope all the issue addressed in this post is correct. HMS Spey is the fifth second-generation OPV procured for the navy. I would argue that this weapon is capable of doing a lot of damage even to larger targets, and certainly to the kind of target an R2 would be most likely to meet in the real world. We can develop this capability capabilities with multiple units and swarm tactic to further increase the sphere of influence. They have some utility of course but OPVs must not be confused by those in power (and the Treasury) with real warships. Range 7000 nmi at 12 kt. In this case, a more heavily armed R2 could lead the Treasury to argue that it was a corvette (which, at 24 kts, it is not) and could serve as a cheaper substitute for more frigates (specifically, for the planned General Purpose Frigate). The units here are having a number of major upgrades to systems completed in country to improve availability issues. It can track up to 100 air targets (subsonic and supersonic). There is no point taking the worst possible scenario then tossing something not designed for that role and comparing it. Something like C Sword 90 would be unable to operate as required by the RN. They are based on the German shipbuilder Lursen’s design of the Darussalam-class with Royal Brunei Navy and are comparable in size, capability and armament to the Batch 1 River class. “…an opportunity to design a mid-sized vessel that may sell overseas…”. Those cutters are mostly used to go after drug cartels and interecpt illegal immigrants and human smugglers. Export variants could be speced with cheaper noisier Diesel engines . Armed with a 76mm gun. As EEZ patrol/fishery protection vessels, I think much simpler R1/1.5 is better (less maintenance load, less crew). For example, the French C Sword 90 Stealth Corvette from Oct 2014 EURONAVAL”. Its at Dutch Fleet Naval Miniatures . (I’m being generous here and using the word “enterprising” instead of “bored”). 2. Now, to succeed, such attacks must be launched at short range, otherwise the attackers will be cut to pieces by the 30 mm gun: the boats employed in such attacks would be small and fragile and a single 30 mm hit, or even proximity detonation, would disable one. Even the US Coast Guard’s 270 Famous cutter class is far capable than the River class OPV. This seems to be an improved version of the system fitted to HMS Clyde.). As NAB pointed out their are OSA issue’s (I struggled, although born in England but to a Catholic Northern Irish mother and an ex-RN English father ) and there is always the issue of tax claw back from both the manufacturer, supplier’s and UK staff. Maybe, but that chance has disappeared. Why do I get the feeling we skipped past the important steps of 1) Global strategy, 2) Need for, and 3) Role of ship in said strategy and jumped straight to the catalogue shopping? The high unit cost of the Rivers does not in itself indicate the qualities of the ships. Not sure D3 would agree with you over replacing 2 of our MCMVS with 2 River Batch 2. Officially, we have “24” F-15s from the US. The T23s were the first RN warship to have a CODLAG plant which, together with substantial fuel reserves gave them their long range, or more accurately, long endurance. Defence Secretary, Michael Fallon, said: "These new ships are an important part of the £160 billion we are … If you think about it that’s exactly what happened with the SSN fleet. So, if we accept the 5 x R2’s (including options) as a positive uplift in both reserving warship production skills and number of vessels in the water that can look after the Channel/Fisheries and ship out to likes of the Med as our contribution to such operations, the more critical issues for the RN are: – Placing the order for T26 so we can start replacing aging T23 The vessels were earlier described at a Defence Select Committee meeting as ships “the Royal Navy does not want or need”. Or people are somehow going to send OPVs up against the Revolutionary Guards. HMS Spey, the fifth and final River Class Batch 2 Offshore Patrol Vessel (OPV), departed BAE Systems’ shipyard in Glasgow on 28th October on her delivery voyage to her new home of Portsmouth Naval Base, BAE Systems announced. You just can’t drop a heavier flight deck on the existing structure, I would argue. Those Brunei ships? But, I think T31 will be “extended-Khareef (as BAE said) or VENATOR”-like ship, ~4000t FL, to keep the number of 5. ~5m or so hull plugged in the center, replace the 15t crain with a hangar. These two facts clearly show that the RN fully intends to carry out extensive helicopter operations with the R2s. Uniquely conducting the ceremony on her namesake, the River Tamar, the very distinctive Batch 2 River-class Offshore Patrol Vessel (OPV), bears two rampant red lions either side of her superstructure, representing … P.S. Ultra’s fully-modular VDS marks a step change in technology and capability, away from the constraints of traditional towed sonars. Or are you saying that using a destroyer to check trawler fishing catches is a worthwhile use of an air defence destroyer or an ASW frigate? It’s the fault of the person. HII has been pushing the US navy to buy into the National Security cutter hull and upgun it to a Frigate. Yet for a typical 6-month deployment, every spare corner of the ship will be stuffed to capacity with additional stores and equipment (not to mention people). Well no more than 3 miles away from here are sat some of the most expensive RN warships per foot of length ever made, Sandown and Hunt MCMVs. The CBG of CTF50 along with CRUDES of CTF55 and the naval forces of the other CMF forces and the huge amount of fast fixed wing ashore sink them in 24-36 hours. Suffice to say that the R2s will be able to act as floating, moving, forward operating bases for helicopters detached from larger units (frigates, destroyers, aircraft carriers) or from shore bases, for one, two or a few days, depending on the mission, type of helicopter and weather conditions. I should, perhaps, have made it explicit that I could not see an R2 being committed to a real war without undergoing some kind of systems and/or weapons upgrade (including countermeasures). If they do, great! The B2’s will be excellent OPVs. No amount of “look how fighty it is” takes away the fact that it cannot be fighty for more than a few hours even if they do shoe horn all that kit on somewhere. They maybe suitable for third rate navies trying to intimidated their local neighbours. I would argue that their armament is perfectly adequate for their intended peacetime roles. And sounds really time consuming. There is no way any Shah, Ayatolla or Mujahadeen can cut orders for RN ships to send them into conflict areas. Which I think the 30MM is to weak for an OPV, A 30MM is more for ships like Sentinel-class cutter that the USCG is building right now. I absolutely agree that it shouldn’t be the UK taxpayer funding a private companies R&D, or guaranteeing a steady flow of work no matter what the cost. I am not sending it anywhere. I am with MSR absolutely on this BAE are seriously struggling in comparison to their peers in terms of warship offers. HMS Tamar is a Batch 2 River-class offshore patrol vessel of the Royal Navy.Named after the River Tamar in England, this is the seventh Royal Navy ship to be named Tamar.. She is the fourth Batch 2 River-class vessel to be built. 2033 tons, 35.5 knots, armed with 6x 5 inch, 4x 25mm, 2x 13mm, 8x torps. With her upcoming deployment to the Falklands, this was the first time I found myself available to see HMS Forth before she set sail to the Southern hemisphere to replace HMS Clyde, but as the evening sun started to set she makes her way towards Devonport on a beautiful calm still evening 02.08.19 That would have been a useful addition the fleet. Heck, even the Spanish Navy’s Buque de Acción Marítima is better armed than the River class OPV. Think of it this way if it makes you happier JH, every OPV is taking up a task that you would have assigned a Type-45/26 to do, which means that you now got a “spare” destroyer or frigate that can be elsewhere fighting bush fires. Meanwhile, our diminishing fleet of high end escorts (which are so diminished in number that they, themselves, are probably worthy of being escorted as high value units in their own right) concentrate on defence diplomacy (exercises, etc. In other situations, an R2 might be able to embark and operate an ASW or AEW Merlin for a couple of days. That is like saying the US shouldn’t have police because any police department vs China is bound to lose. Improving existing watertight bulkheads (by, for example, reducing, or changing the location, of the points of penetration) would also involve internal redesign. Are those ships fit to fight? One of 4 from September 15 to April 16 only then increasing to 2 of 4 with no certain timeline to go to 3 or more. The River class is a British class of five offshore patrol vessels. I would far rather have built something on the scale of the Absalon (not necessarily the Absalon, I hasten to add: there are many options). Likewise, one can easily envisage the ships embarking containerised unmanned air vehicle (UAV) systems. The River-class Batch 2 offshore patrol vessel (OPV) HMS Trent has been commissioned with the Royal Navy today during a ceremony at Portsmouth Naval Base. The River-class Batch 2 offshore patrol vessel (OPV) HMS Spey has been commissioned with the Royal Navy on 7 January 2021 during a ceremony at Portsmouth Naval Base. Oct 10, 2014 - “Steel has been cut for new @RoyalNavy offshore patrol vessel at a ceremony in #Glasgow” That doesn ’ t designed to go very far or stay there for long.... 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